Artwork in the June 2007 Issue of Stuff MagazineIn a recent issue of Stuff Magazine, the above artwork was displayed. While the intent may have been to show nondescript Hinduesque figures taking part in yoga, sex and alcohol, these images are easily identifiable as (clockwise from top) Ganesh, Hanuman, and Vishnu, among the most highly revered figures in Hinduism. Sex and alcohol are not, in and of themselves, offensive to Hinduism. However, the suggestion that Ganesh, the god of wisdom, drinks and that Hanuman, Ram's celibate servant, has sex most certainly are offensive.
I'd like to emphasize, first, that I support the magazine's artistic and constitutional freedom to portray Hinduism as such. However, whenever one insults another culture, be it through malice or—even worse—through ignorance, they should be held accountable for their decision. That's how dialogue works in an open democracy, and that's all we're asking. Here is my letter to their editor-in-chief.
Dan Bova,
The illustrations above the quiz on page 56 of the June 2007 issue of Stuff were questionable at best. C'mon, guys. You have the audacity to test our knowledge of yoga while showing Ganesh holding liquor and Hanuman having sex with a girl!
I understand your predictable attempt to use Hindu erotica to decorate your quiz. This despite the fact that sexual expression in Hinduism is relegated to ancient sculptures, dirty pictures behind closed doors, and PG-13 Bollywood films. We have British prudishness to thank for that. You're perpetuating a simple, outdated cliche, which is okay. Lame, but okay.
I do question, however, why you decided to throw high-ranking Hindu gods into the sexual mix. Hindu erotica never did. Why did you? You realize, of course, that Hinduism is a living religion. Over 800 million people (a million of whom live in the US alone) might take religious offense to seeing the gods they still worship cast in such an uncharacteristic and arguably unflattering light, not to mention all the non-Hindu South Asians (Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, atheists and agnostics included) who would take artistic offense at this distortion of subcontinental culture.
I'm not going to get into freedom of speech. I support your right to be offensive. If you were trying to make a bold, controversial statement like Serrano did with his photograph of a crucifix in a glass of urine, then come out and say it. I'd respect your audacity and drop the issue because, personally, I find religious debates boring and pointless. But I'm sure 800 million other people would love to take it from there.
If, however, your point was to be lighthearted, then come out and admit your art department are a bunch of morons that don't know a damn thing about their subject matter or artistic intent. It seems like they got the Vedas (ancient scriptures) confused with the Kama Sutra (a book about human sex). Sounds trivial, but that's as stupid as confusing the New Testament with Madonna's Sex book. If I were to depict Jesus and the Twelve Apostles in an orgy, I could rely on my constitutional right to do so. But I'd also expect to get a lot of angry letters, and I'd certainly expect to get my ass fired as should you and Ian Robinson, your art director.
Sincerely,
Snehal Avichal
PS: For the record, Ganesh is supposed to have four arms instead of six, and Hanuman should look more like a monkey and less like the Grinch.
If any of you reading this post feel intellectual, artistic, or moral outrage that a major publication could make such a mindless move, please raise awareness by doing any of the following:
- fill out Stuff's feedback form online at: http://www.stuffmagazine.com/feedback,
- email your thoughts to the editors of Stuff Magazine at: editors@Stuffmag.com,
- click on "email post" below to send this post to others you know and/or to the editors of Stuff,
- link to this post in your blog,
- add this post to a social bookmarking site like Digg or Stumbleupon (you can use the Digg link below).
74 comments:
Good piece of mind you gave them. Bring this up on other Hindu fora, as I will too. And let's file a public lawsuit against these morons from Stuff.
touche, snehal
Hanuman was also celibate...wasn't he ?
Yes, Hanuman did beget a son, Makadhwaja, though not sexually.
great letter Snehal, you covered everything that needed to be said. I've sent them my own piece of mind and forwarded your blog to everyone I know.
I recently wrote a letter and emailed it to several people. I wanted to share a letter that a friend of mine wrote to the editors. I hope this encourages more people to write their comments as well:
Mr. Dan Bova,
Your imagery of the Hindu gods holding alcohol bottles and engaging in what looks like promiscuious activity is insulting not only to me but the other 700 million Hindus out there in the world.
I'm not a religious person, but I'd be smart enough to know not to depict ANY religion's deities with alcohol bottles in their hands. You and your artistic jelly-brained morons have yoga, the kamasutra, and actual Hindu religion and its teachings all mixed up. If you don't understand the Hindu faith, you should be more cautious of letting imagery like this slide by into your magazine.
I would expect angry letters if I depicted Jesus Christ, St. Peter, and Mary hanging out with beer mugs and liquor bottles in their hands. Or Mary with her arms around some Chip 'N Dale stud.
-A. Patel
Here is the original letter I sent out to a mass email list. Please feel free to cut and paste and send it out to as many people you know.
---------------
Hi Everyone:
I wanted to bring attention to a quiz generated by Stuff magazine using Hindu imagery. While I am not religious myself and believe in freedom of speech (being a journalist and all), I still feel strongly that the editors of Stuff magazine made a poor judgment call when using Hindu imagery.
I would like to draw attention and hope to get a written public apology published in their next issue and website. We have power in numbers and should not stand for the constant mockery of Hindu deities in media.
Please help my cousin and I raise awareness to this issue by writing directly to the editors of the magazine and forwarding the link to people of all faiths. I hope to engage in intelligent dialogue with the editors by writing a professional letter of complaint. I hope that you would take five minutes out of your day to write a letter of complaint as well.
Please visit my cousin’s blog site to view the actual image used in the magazine, our letters and instructions on where you can send your comments to Stuff magazine.
We can encourage editors in all media to pay close attention to the sensibilities of faith.
Link: http://oxhousecameldoor.blogspot.com/2007/06/stuff-magazines-insult-to-hindus.html
Warm wishes,
Teena Sukharam-Patel and Snehal Avichal
Hey guys, here is the letter i sent to the editors as well.
To Whom it May Concern:
I am writing this letter in regards of the recent issue of Stuff. In there on page 56, in the article titles "Vice: Yoga pose,drink, or sex position" a major misrepresentation of Hindu Deities has taken place. These depictions of Ganesha holding liquor and Hanuman having sex with a girl misrepresent one of the oldest and major religions of the world. The Hindu religion has over 800 million followers. Not one of these followers, would approve of the depiction for the simple fact that this is not true. To Hindus, the religion is very much real and not filled with mythologies or "characters."
I think Stuff has used very poor judgement on the publishing of this article. There is clearly enough evidence to see the writers of this article did not research the subject matter enough. For the record, Ganesha has 4 arms not 6 and that Hanuman is a monkey not "The Grinch". Please take this complaint seriously because most of the followers of this magazine are educated, college graduates. Your misrepresentation of our religion, yes, has "freedom of speech" written all over it, but is also smeared in ignorance and disrespect.
Imagine if Stuff published depictions of Jesus Christ doing something most of his followers would consider Blasphemy? You know how much public out cry there would be. You do know, and that is why it will never happen. I must reiterate that Hinduism dates back farther than Jesus Christ and has a devote following of over 800 million. The religion is real and will remain real.
A large part of the this country's economy is influenced by Indian- Americans (India). You can look at the stats if you choose to. A large part of these Indian Americans are Hindus. I think respect is demanded not for the individual but for the religion. Hinduism is a very real religion and its time for it to be respected as one. This concern will be forwarded to the Major Hindu religion organizations. I think for this matter, a sincere apology and admittance of error is needed. As a Hindu myself, I will not hold a grudge and will continue to read your magazine but only due to my respect for the magazines work. Again, I do think poor judgement has taken place and that corrections should be made. Mistakes happen, but now we as a people must learn from them. Please respect this very real concern and I would hope that Stuff will take Responsibility to the issue and take the proper measures.
Well said Yogi. I am currently working on my letter and will post it up soon.
Here's an exchange I had on another forum, which I think further illuminates this issue:
Skeptic: I don't think its such a big deal. Loads of hindus drink alcohol. Also since when did sex - or reproduction become a vice? At the end of the day it is free speech and remains only as ink on paper...The image of christ has been portrayed throughout the internet in many different ways and forms, some deemed offensive and some deemed not so. At the end of the day, if you don't want to see it, you simply have to close the book, or turn off the computer. It's not like anyone is forcing anyone to see these images.
My response: Skeptic, you raise a valid point about free speech. But you ignored the fact that the letter to the editor defended the magazine's constitutional freedom of speech at least twice. There are more issues involved, however.
I have the constitutional right to tell everyone I meet to "F--k off!" But if I exercise that right to its fullest extent, I should be prepared for a fight, be it physical or verbal. That's all the letter is suggesting.
There are also ethics. As an architect, I have the constitutional right to tell all my clients to "F--k off!" However, a code of ethics prevents me from doing so. I cannot simply tell my clients to "turn away." I will lose my license if I exercise this constitutional right to its fullest extent.
The media are also bound by ethics that surpass their constitutional rights. And viewers and readers, in turn, bear the responsibility to inform the media when they misinform. If we simply turned away every time the media wrongfully portrayed a situation, bad things happen. An example of this was their exaggeration of Spanish torture of Cubans which directly led to the Spanish-American War, a war that most historians now agree was unjustly begun.
Finally, no one is saying Hindus don't drink. They're saying Ganesh doesn't. Also, it's the Hanuman-banging-a-chick thing that's particularly offensive, since he's revered for his lifelong celibacy. Your assertion that "christ [sic] has been portrayed throughout the internet in many different ways" is right. But can you cite an example in a MAJOR publication where he's banging a girl? Or, more fittingly, have you seen images of the Virgin Mary having sex in a major publication? If so, I'm sure those editors had a fight on their hands, which is all this letter to the editor is suggesting.
Turning away is easier said than done. You could have turned away when you saw this post with which you disagreed. Instead, however, you did the better thing and voiced your opinion.
First of all let me tell you that I am 60 % hindu and my 40 % goes to other religion like jain,buthha,christiani,muslim and others.I can go to temple,mosque,church,derasar with respect n interest.I dont think this picture can harm any religion coz its not strong.It shows a person's own mindframe,I think he will draw same kind of picture of any religion or anybody.Ya I am not impressed.If he really want to potray sex than my advise is plz. come to india where we worship sex for thousands of years.Its not that he does not have respect for hinduism but he does not have respect for any religion or even sex.In india our main god is shiva and shivlinga is symbol of shiva having sex.Every indian in the morning go to temple and worship that symbol.So sex is also concidered respectful as god.But in any case as I told this does not impress me or appeal me.Thank you.
Sanjay, I disagree when you say this image can't hurt any religion. It's exactly images like this that gave Westerners the impression that Hinduism was a savage religion. That, in turn, led to very aggressive tactics on the part of foreigners to convert Hindus to other religions, often violently. But the past is the past, and I don't want to dwell on that.
But now just as Westerners are beginning to appreciate Hinduism as a viable philosophy applicable to modern life, images like this can easily undermine that view, especially when published in a magazine with millions of readers.
Regarding sex and Hinduism, the Shivling is a symbol of Shiva's sexual energy and control (life force), not lust. Hinduism separates sexual energy from sexual abuse, a valuable mental lesson most people should work to learn. Images like this blend everything together, and that's why so many people still think Hindus are savages.
Dear Editor,
Looks like your magazine really needed some cheap illustrations like the one depicted to get sales going.
Refrain from hurting religious sentiments.
AK.
Oh grow up!! Do you seriously care more about cartoon depictions (which look kinda cool anyhow) than all the millions of other real probles? Specially in India, where religion has been a cause, in one way or another, of just so so many deaths. Religion everywhere si the leasing cause of people killing people. The sooner we're rid of it the better.
And if there WERE Gods, surely they'd not care what some people drew? And surely they'd not care for those who went all righteous and 'stood up' for them. If there were any standing up to be done, they could stand up for themselves. I'm not sure they could be bothered to do so, though.
But of course, religious perverts who see only the images and get all riled about it have no real religious sense anyhow.
You guys are badass scary, y'know? Culturally I'm Hindu, but it's just as bad as any other religious group of fanatics anywhere. Better I remain anonymous
Stuff magazine u will find your self in to court soon with your editors and author of this article and that's promise.
As an agnostic who is generally in favor of criticizing and deriding organized religion, I have to say that I agree with the sentiment of the original post—the pictures and quiz were just plain ignorant.
I also commend snehal for his well-thought-out letter and position. His post was not anti-free speech but rather an affirmation of the marketplace of ideas. Stuff magazine has a right to publish whatever they want. But the readers also have a right to criticize and debate what they publish.
In case of this quiz and its pictures, there’s not much to debate. It isn’t a critique of religion or Hinduism. It’s not very clever. And it really adds nothing notable to the marketplace of ideas. It’s just plain stupid.
Another problem with the quiz is that it, in a way, reaffirms an attitude of ethnic and religious superiority. That is, while a poor mockery of Hinduism is fair game for the magazine, I highly doubt that other religions and cultures are equally targeted and depicted by the magazine in such a way. I can’t imagine Stuff printing an image of Jesus and Muhammad in a 69 position. So, this choice to criticize some religions and not others perpetuates the idea that these latter religions are superior, and beyond critique and insult. It perpetuates the idea that the religion of Hinduism, and other religions they choose to treat in such a way, are inferior jokes, lesser truths that are not to be taken seriously.
Not being an Indian or Hindu myself (although my mom did go into labor with me while watching the movie Gandhi, that has to count for something), I still see a personal stake in this in that I am a member of a society that is being “dumbed” down every day. Being stupid is idolized. And this quiz solidifies a position that it’s “cool” to be ignorant of other cultures and religions. It’s much different than an intelligent critique of Hinduism or religion at large. It’s just a glorification of cultural stupidity—a refusal to educate oneself about the world around him/her.
This is in reference to a post by Anonymous that begins with “Oh grow up” with two exclamation points:
Dear Anonymous:
Any intellectual dialogue would NOT work for you. I am not sure where you got the idea that my cousins and I are part of some fanatic Hindu group. For the record we are NOT. This debate is not about Freedom of Speech as we have said countless times that the publication has every right to publish content they deem appropriate for their magazine.
However, we or perhaps I should say, I am taking issue with the cultural and religious scrambling by an ill-informed Art department.
Could you answer one question: If you are a Non-believer of any faith then how can you be so confident about knowing what God is thinking in a hypothetical situation of GOD existing? How do you know whether or not GOD would care for the righteousness of individuals? If GOD does exist are you the PR for her or him? Your original statement is futile.
My point is, I am not a regular person of faith but I respect the beliefs of others. And the moment we stop caring, we will cease to exist. The voice of dissent is always needed to have an intellectual debate about Religion, Politics, etc.
About being scary:
It is easy to be anonymous and say what ever you like without taking responsibility. Personally, I would be more frightful of the coward who hides behind the curtain and verbally vomits statements for which he cannot claim as his own. Stop being anonymous and be accountable for your own words if you feel so strongly about them.
Teena Sukharam Patel
Oh grow up!! Do you seriously care more about cartoon depictions (which look kinda cool anyhow) than all the millions of other real probles [sic]? Specially [sic]in India, where religion has been a cause, in one way or another, of just so so many deaths. Religion everywhere si [sic] the leasing [sic]cause of people killing people. The sooner we're rid of it the better.
Anonymous, before I commend your mastery of the English language I'd like to commend your courage in expressing your views (anonymous is your real name, right?).
Second, religion is not the [leading] cause of people killing each other. Disrespect for other religions is (perhaps) the leading cause of people killing each other. Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao Zedong were all atheists, and they killed more people than any religious group, Nazis included. They shared your view of religion: "The sooner we're rid of it the better."
Religious disrespect stems from ignorance of other cultures, which this magazine is perpetuating. I am only advocating a writing campaign to reduce ignorance about one religion. How is that fanatical?
You say that there are so many other problems, but I say those problems stem from people (be they religious fanatics or atheist fanatics) not understanding other religions.
I am only trying to raise a little cultural sensitivity in America. And I don't mean that in a hippie "Kumbaya" sense. I mean that in a very pragmatic, lives-are-at-stake sense. Consider how the White House's (and most Americans') ignorance of the complexities of Islam blinded them to the fact that a civil war would break out after the invasion of Iraq. Now they're trying to referee an all-out war between Sunnis and Shias, even though almost NO ONE in the White House or Congress can name one difference between the two.
You're right, India has many problems. I'd say it's a veritable powder keg. If war did break out, most likely America would get involved one way or another (that's apparently what we do). Now what kind of shape would we be in if most people don't even know that putting Hindu gods in porn might be construed as offensive by 800 million people?
And, finally, you called me and my cousins "religious fanatics." You obviously missed the point of our grievance, which was intellectual, cultural and artistic, NOT religious. If others approach this from that angle, direct your half thought-out comments at them, not us. For the record, we respect and empathize with ALL religions, but I'm an agnostic, my cousin who told me about this is an atheist, and you're an idiot.
Hi Snehal,
You have given a good piece of mind to editor as well as to that anonymous who herself/himself is not grown up and suggests to grow up! I have posted a mail to editor and have forwarded this to my friends!
Your cause is good, but it is weak. There is nothing here, and it has no substance. You boast yourself to be this all knowing person (you might not think you are, but you sure act like you are), regurgitating history and using your vast vocabulary to teach us like we're children in a class room. Teach on preacher, because you do it with such ease. I've read a few of your other blogs as well and you talk down to people. It is almost condescending. You act like you value other people's opinions but do you really? I think you just want to hear yourself speak or just read what you wrote over and over again because it makes you feel better. Are you that bored with your life as an architect? Don't quit your day job.
Kiran,
And your on-topic comment was...
Attacks on my character aside, are we still saying that writing a letter to a magazine is a bigger waste of time than posting comments about not writing a letter to a magazine?
Really that's all you have for me.
Did I damage your ego Mr. Architect? Now your bored and tired. See the topic is that weak, that it has lost its fire.
In your above comments you answered one of your skeptics: "There are also ethics. As an architect, I have the constitutional right to tell all my clients to "F--k off!" However, a code of ethics prevents me from doing so. I cannot simply tell my clients to "turn away." I will lose my license if I exercise this constitutional right to its fullest extent."
Code of ethics, really, this is what you came up with.
You wouldn't lose your license, but you may be fired from the company/firm you work for. The reason you would never tell a client to "F--k off" is because of MONEY. That's what stops you from telling your client what's on your mind.
In any job we would hold our tongue, instead of being fired or losing money.
Stuff Magazine will probably lose advertisers and subscribers. Will it effect the greater company, probably not. Will it hurt their investors, probably not. It comes down to the dollar. They can care less what they print in their magazine, they can have 50 pages of disgusting filth covered with urine. If that sells magazines and reaches a certain audience, then they will go ahead and print it.
The imagery is so minor that any real Hindu would look at it and just go on with their day. There is no text that even mentions that the images are Hindu deities. Are we to assume that everyone knows about Hinduism and all their deities? Did a random person who knows nothing about Hinduism say, "Oh look at those Hindu Gods having sex and drinking alcohol, damn I sure want to be part of that religion."? I'm sure they just turned the page until they got to the pictures of Bijou Phillips.
Are we going to rely on Stuff Magazine to teach young males about Hinduism?
Is that what your trying to do?
As I said before, don't quit your day job.
Trust me, bro. I would lose my license for not acting professionally:
http://www.aia.org/about_ethics/
The imagery is so minor that any real Hindu would look at it and just go on with their day.
Really? Have you read the comments above, yours and anonymous nothwithstanding?
The bulk of your criticism isn't about the issue, but your disagreement with how it talk down to people.
Did I damage your ego Mr. Architect?
Kiran, who's condescending to whom, now? You can keep it up, but you'd be proving my point.
Again, personal attacks aside, does anyone have anything intelligent to say that's on topic?
It's Miss Kiran. Don't assume that only a man can comment like this. A woman occasionally reads Men's Magazines as well and I’ve seen the issue mentioned on this blog and other websites and forums.
Half of these people are not real followers of Hinduism. They just think they are. Yes, I know I’m assuming, but before you chew me out for it just wait.
Yes, the comments I made in the last post were probably offensive, but only to prove that the "imagery" was not. Look at the actual page the imagery is printed on (page 56).
Tell me if there is one word there that says Hindu, Hinduism, or even Hindu Gods. More people probably recognize Sean P. Diddy Combs face right under the text that says "FIGHTIN' WORDS" then the imagery of the deities (P. Diddy is right next to the imagery of the deities). The reason we know that they are Hindu Gods is because some of us grew up with it and some of us even learned about it, and maybe some of us are real followers of Hinduism.
Before when I said don't assume, it was to say don't assume that everyone automatically knows that the imagery that their looking at has something to do with the Hindu religion. Just like I assumed that half the people are not real followers of Hinduism (which they probably are real followers) and how you assumed I was a guy.
I get the point that the Hindu religion deserves respect and the integrity that other religions get. I have never thought that it didn't. I actually think it is more respected than many of you think. The imagery does not offend me, nor does it do anything to diminish the Hindu religion, but if it offends all of you then so be it. Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world for a reason. It has stood the test of time and this imagery will do nothing to stop it or to diminish it. I know I’m digressing, but what is offensive is when Hindu deities are printed on calendars and given away at Indian store grand openings and when people find the need to put Hindu deities on their car dash boards. Also tattoos of Hindu deities on people’s skin. Trust me these tattoed people are not worthy of any of the Hindu deities.
Oh and the only reason I am condescending is to keep up with you.
As I said before, are we going to rely on Stuff Magazine to teach young males about Hinduism? Absolutely Not!
I was being honest when I said don’t quit your day job.
So Kiran, to recap:
Kiran getting irate over a blog = OK
"fake" Hindus getting irate over Hanuman with his pants down = NOT OK
Writing short letter to editor = waste of time
Writing very, very long comments on blog telling people not to write a short letter = not a waste of time.
-----
I'd like to take you seriously, Kiran, but doing so would insult your intelligence.
It's Miss Kiran. Don't assume that only a man can comment like this.
It was out of respect for women that I assumed only a man would comment like this.
Again, the call goes out for intelligent comments...
Kiran writes:
what is offensive is when Hindu deities are printed on calendars and given away at Indian store grand openings and when people find the need to put Hindu deities on their car dash boards.
So you're saying...
sextuple-fisting Ganesh...not offensive.
dashboard Ganesh...offensive?
Got it.
Here's what I mean about intelligent debate. Read the posts by "Skeptic" whom I respect though disagree with: www.topix.net
...regurgitating history and using your vast vocabulary...
I didn't realize history and vocabulary were bad things. Perhaps this other website might be more to your liking.
Feel free to comment there, and save space here for people who want to address this issue directly.
Your too intelligent for me Mr. Architect. No one is at your level.
Actually read what I wrote, before you spew your ego driven drivel.
I never said in any of my posts on your blog not to write a letter, not once, I said it was a weak cause.
You said:
"Your respect for women is why you assumed only a man can comment like this." and "Kiran being irate on a blog = OK"
I'm not going to touch that because I know where your going with this.
Continuing....
You said:
" "fake" Hindus getting irate over Hanuman with his pants down = NOT OK"
If you had read what I wrote I said later on:
Just like I assumed that half the people are not real followers of Hinduism (which they probably are real followers) and how you assumed I was a guy.
You said:
"So you're saying...
sextuple-fisting Ganesh...not offensive.
dashboard Ganesh...offensive?"
Once again you don't read. Let me repeat: Are we to assume that everyone knows about Hinduism and all their deities? Does everyone automatically know that it is Ganesh and Hanuman? No.
See you use your history and vocabulary to exhaust your readers. Yes it may prove that your intelligent and that you have a strong grasp of history and the english language, but your point gets lost during it all.
Oh grow up!! Do you seriously care more about cartoon depictions (which look kinda cool anyhow) than all the millions of other real probles? Specially in India, where religion has been a cause, in one way or another, of just so so many deaths. Religion everywhere si the leasing cause of people killing people. The sooner we're rid of it the better.
Ummm ... No ... you see religion does not kill anyone. People kill people. If not for religion, I am sure people will find some cause to justify their actions.
This kind of images can not be
tolerated. Period.
Any body who talks of Freedom of speech or says that I am religious fanatic is plain stupid. These are people who argue for the sake of arguing. If it hurts so many people's sentiments, don't try to get into this blah blah, its very simple don't do it.
I have myself written a polite letter to Stuff magazine and would encourage everybody do so (http://www.stuffmagazine.com/feedback or email to editors@Stuffmag.com)
Snehal nice work. This shouldn't be allowed.
I have left my feedback and urge everyone to do so.
Ignore people(just to make their presence) who take the discussions away from the cause.
We should get Indian Media involved to get wider publicity of this issue.
Anonymous, Sammat, and Venkat,
Thank you for the comments. I appreciate the insights.
Kiran,
Charming as always. I do appreciate you coming back on topic. Thank you.
General note to everyone:
I know some people have been having trouble emailing the editors via: editors@Stuffmag.com. Apparently emails are getting bounced a day or so after you send them.
Just to be on the safe side, please send them an email AND use their online feedback form. The URL for that is at the bottom of the original post.
Final note:
Whatever your position on this issue (i.e. whether you support Stuff or you're pissed off by them) let your voice be heard where it counts. That is to say, while the discussion here is great, it's better for you to tell them your thoughts directly.
Thanks everyone!
One last thing (I haven't been a t a computer all day, so I'm blurting out all these thoughts while I ca):
I did contact BBC News on their website, just to see if they were interested in doing a smal piece on this. Nothing major, but something to expand the debate.
They're a very responsible news outfit, and whatever position they took, I'm sure they would do it respectfully.
I'd appreciate any readers to also contact them on their website: bbcnews.com
It would increase the chance of this issue getting voiced and responsibly debated.
By the way I did enjoy reading your post on Friday, May 11, 2007
"Less Action, More Talk"
Sorry, I would have posted on that post, but there was no link to make a comment there.
Just some things I found via google:
http://www.mcnallyscorpus.com/images/Jesus_and_Me_in_Sauna_.jpg
http://www.mcnallyscorpus.com/images/The_Ceiling_2.jpg
David Bonetti of the
St. Louis Post-Dispatch (MO) had this to say about the paintings/sculptures that were at the Saint Louis University Museum of Art in 2003(excerpts):
The Rev. Dennis McNally makes paintings that might look familiar if you've seen the erotically suggestive sculptures of nubile young men that dot the SLU campus. One work, "The Trinity," features Christ, his mother and St. John, a revision of Catholic dogma that might skirt heresy. According to the church, the Trinity represents the three personae - the father, the son and the holy ghost - that exist within one God. It is the central concept of the Catholic faith, and it does not include Mary or John, the feminist and homoerotic implications of their inclusion notwithstanding.
The other McNally work is a Crucifixion, "After Cimabue," that might be more appropriate hanging in the antechamber of a sadomasochistic dungeon than on the walls of a Jesuit museum. The Rev. McNally shows a hunky Jesus clothed in a loose and surprisingly revealing loincloth.
McNally is chairman of fine and performing arts at St. Joseph's University www.sju.edu
Some of the paintings/art appear here:
http://www.mcnallyscorpus.com/index.php
Click Paintings>Look under Images of Deity
Also I'm not sure what the outcome was. This was back in 2003
SLUMA Site: http://sluma.slu.edu/index.html
Once again sorry for the long post.
shit man they shud not be killed dey shud be mudred slowly......
who ever has done dis mst be an ass hole....
Here is the letter written by me to the uncultured editor.
Mr.editor,
I am writing this letter in regards of the recent issue of Stuff. In there on page 56, in the article titles "Vice: Yoga pose,drink, or sex position" a major misrepresentation of Hindu Deities has taken place. These depictions of Ganesha holding liquor and Hanuman having sex with a girl misrepresent one of the oldest and major religions of the world. The Hindu religion has over 800 million followers. Not one of these followers, would approve of the depiction for the simple fact that this is not true. To Hindus, the religion is very much real and not filled with mythologies.
I have never read ur magazine . and sure in future not at all. But this type of pictures wht u think will heart our religious thoughts. No uncultured man . ours is a religion which tolerate u such people. But sure these things will only reduce ur publicity not sure will raise.
This shows not ur courage ur culture only that ur religion thought you.
As a hindu I should want u to appolagise and give garantiee that this type of features will never repeat.
Regards,
A HINDU
Anoopbhai, next time please use spell check.
Thanks for getting the word out, everyone. So far, 2,000 visitors have come to this site since I posted this story.
Hindustan Times also picked up the story:
hindustantimes.com
For the record, according to the Hindustan Times article, Nanoo Mahendru from California called the editors. Here's an excerpt from the article:
"His attitude was, 'Why are you offended? This is our creation.' If he would have said we are really sorry, somebody made a mistake, that would have been the end of it," said Mahendru.
Let them know this isn't over...
u r all disgustng
ths blady rascals thy r blaming our culture like ths
wel thnk iif we hve dne the same thng "jesus"
bt we r nt insane or inhuman like thm .....better thy shuld gt thr reward frm the lord itself
sorry jesus
u r all disgustng
ths blady rascals thy r blaming our culture like ths
wel thnk iif we hve dne the same thnge with "jesus"
thy baldy wnt hce spared us
bt we r nt like thm like ths rascals
bt we r nt insane or inhuman like thm .....better thy shuld gt thr reward frm the lord itself
sorry jesus
i wud suggest stop writing any letters to the editors or any of the owners....... reason being: the owners wud realize that they have gained some public attention.
they wud continue to such things to get a "top of mind recall" if not now, sometym later in the future........
i know its hurting...... and it wudn be ryt on our part to sit idle... but think of a better idea that wud hurt the magzine and wudn get any publicity as well......
i wud suggest stop writing any letters to the editors or any of the owners...think of a better idea that wud hurt the magzine and wudn get any publicity as well
The idea isn't to hurt the magazine. The idea is to open this debate for public discourse. Apathy and secret lawsuits aren't the answer.
Think of how blacks were portrayed in 70s "blaxploitation" films. The NAACP took an active role to remove such stereotypes. Now, while black stereotypes still exist, they are not as prevalent as they used to be.
Desis, on the other hand, are very apathetic about their portrayal in the media. We are exoticized, stereotyped, or mocked as a rule. Think how many times a desi appears in a movie with a stereotypical career, or a stereotypical accent (accents are fine, but there are enough desis without accents that often have to imitate an accent once they're cast).
This image of Hanuman is a symptom of a bigger problem. Public discussion is good. I know it will probably INCREASE circulation of Stuff and make some of us look silly, but that's not the point. The point is to start a dialog that should have been started a while ago.
Kiran,
Regarding Rev. McNally's religious paintings. Yes, they're controversial. But they were created by someone who knew the subject matter to provoke thought about Catholic dogma.
Stuff was just being stupid. The only thing they provoked was the stereotype that Hinduism is a savage religion that digs bestiality.
People argue that Stuff readers are stupid. I say that's precisely what makes it dangerous. Stupid readers will accept this as fact. Maybe even grow up one day to convert it out of us. Today's culture war with Islam could easily, one day, become a culture war with Hinduism.
I agree when you said that Hinduism will stand the test of time. But culture wars often change religions for the worse.
I left a voicemail to the Editor of Stuff on Thursday, June 7. I have yet to hear from him or a mouthpiece from the company. I will attempt to call again on Monday. Will keep everyone posted on the happenings.
Snehal--Great job on getting the word out. I think people are responding back with arguments for both sides which is exactly what we hoped would happen.
I have heard a lot of negative comments about the idea of complaining and I congratulate those who voice their opinion. It is not always easy to do so especially when religion and culture are at the forefront of the debate.
One thing that I hope to accomplish is to continue talks. This is not meant to file a lawsuit or get people fired. This is an attempt to start dialog about raising cultural awareness in America about India and Hinduism. This is so important and it must start.
Help us get the word out.
If you know of an outlet that we can use but do not want to do it yourself then please email Snehal or myself at t_sukharam@yahoo.com
why cant u put a condom on virgin Marys hand and portray for single mother problem.it will be worth interesting .also Gillette can use jesus as a model.long unshaved beard can be easily shaved.
dear editor, if u get a pen and paper and a media to publish would u write sex stories about your mother and draw nude caricature about her.
so i feel this is freedom of press.
press is something that brings out news and sufferings to daylight not porno magazines
Well, Hinduism....I will tell you a story:
A Catholic Priest from Vatican had cme to India...while attaining a function he meet with A Hindu Yoga Guru from Mumbai. They had chat on various issues....after a while the priest starting telling about Christianity and how its greater than Hindusim.
The Guru didnt speak a word when he was telling...just smiled when he was talking. This intensified aggression in the priest and asked to meet Guru the next day.
Next Day:
Many Religious Books were kept at a desk.....The topmost book was Bible while the last one at the bottom was The GITA.
The Priest said "Now, If a person asks you, prove greatness of Hinduism, how can you prove?"
The Guru replied" According to me, I don't need to prove greatness of Hinduism."
The priest replied" See, I put The Holy Bible at the top while The Gita at the bottom. What can you say about that?"
The Guru replied" Thats what the Hinduism is. Its the mother of all religions. As a mother, it has made himself as a base so that her children can grow and flourish."
Now can you tell me what you got from the story? The story is real one.
PS: I haven't got user Id on Google but my name is Vinamra Gharat
Correction:: The Guru replied" Thats what the Hinduism is. Its the mother of all religions. As a mother, it has made HERSELF as a base so that her children can grow and flourish."
Vinamra,
Your point is well taken. By virtue of it own greatness, Hinduism will endure without others defending it.
However, religions do die, even great ones. Hinduism is the oldest religion, but not the first.
Sumerian is the first religion that we know of, and now it's dead. Egyptian is older than Hinduism, and now it's dead. Celtic druidism is as old as Hinduism, and very similar in philosophy and origin, and that too is dead. The ancient Greek religion is also dead.
The priest in your story was angered that the Guru didn't fight back, but only smiled. I say, fine, let us only smile. But let the world know we are smiling.
Ignoring the priest is different than smiling at him.
(By the way, I have a genuine respect for Christianity. I don't intend this to become a conflict between Christians and Hindus. I am merely extending your metaphor.)
whoever it may be in this world, one should not insult another's religion...
this is an punishable offence...
hopeless people who are involved in this work , we hate them and we pray our god to save himself from such idiots
Hi; I'm the Anonymous from earlier (The "Oh grow up!!" one). Sorry, this window doesn't have a spellchecker; I'll try to be more careful.
I almost decided to sign in with my real name, but then I read about Shit Sena thugs roughing up people because they dared exercise their right to view that blasphemous Orkut site that was posting anti - Bad Thackeray stuff, and decided better safe than a hero (SOME typos just won't go away. Sorry.)
So, let me see. Your grievance, according to you, has little to do with religion, but is about the "..intellectual, cultural and artistic" aspects. Sweet.
Do we have a good social theory about Freedom of Speech? Certainly not something workable, or someone, somewhere might have tried for such a Utopia.
But really, what's at stake? I think (and it's a personal opinion, so feel free to differ), that a strong reaction to an image implies a great deal of investment at some level into the depiction. What would someone who doesn't know Hindu mythology see in these? At worst, he might think that there are strange creatures in Hindu mythology (and face it, there are). But you, (and others like you) see something different - you see a perversion of your image of how you absorbed Indian myths through your development. But who made these images in the first place? Who made these stories? Yes, it's part of culture, but it would be a mistake to think of it as history, instead of mythology.
So what seems to be at stake is how your (our) views of Indian mythology are preserved, or not.
Now balance this against Freedom of Speech - to me the balance is clearly in favor of F.o.S.
The artistic is clearly not a legit point to take up - one man's Impressionist is another man's blotchy canvas. To argue that the image contradicts any Indian sense of 'artistic' is silly.
One final ramble - if the unsuspecting (non-Indian) public is just an impressionable lump, incapable of personal judgement, wouldn't they learn 'real' Indian culture automatically? After all, such images are just a small fraction of all the images that the net provides. So, statistically speaking, from a proper Bayesian point, such images will be weighed very low, and lie in the tails of the posterior distributions, and there's nothing to worry about! QED!
How about educating people that such silly things are not worth worrying over, when larger issues abound? That tolerance starts at home? That if I can't make fun of myself and my own cultural likes and dislikes, I am NOT tolerant.
According to Hindu belief...King Manu(Hope the spelling is right) was the 1st man, In Christianity Adam and Eve were the 1st one.To some one some other.
The story gives out 3 conclusions:
1)You cannot go on teaching wisdom to all foolish people in the world.
2) Forgiveness is the greatest deed.
3)If the foolishness gets more and more ir-bearable, then there should be opposition which leads to destruction.
These were the reasons for Mahabhartha.
So its on us to decide which course to follow.
And Hinduism is really noble religion.
BTW any reply letter from Editor?
Have anyone tried to contact newspapers about it?
Is this the only blog were discussion going?
~Vinamra
Vinamra,
Your insights, too, are thought provoking.
No response from the editors. So far, they have not returned any emails or voice mails.
According to the Indo-Asian New Service (IANS) the editors did respond to Nanoo Mahendru of California. Their tone was unapologetic.
http://in.news.yahoo.com
Here are some other forums discussing this topic:
http://www.topix.net
http://forums.ratedesi.com
http://uberdesi.com
http://www.jaydabhi.com
http://niralimagazine.com
anonymous,
Your points are valid and I appreciate your thoughts. The editors have the freedom to print whatever. We have the freedom to criticize it. An apology on their behalf of poor editorial judgment would suffice. They have been unapologetic.
I would have been more sympathetic earlier when you said "Oh grow up!" if you didn't characterize this topic as religious fanaticism.
You advocate a sense of humor about the situation. Frankly, most desis raised in the US do have a sense of humor regarding how foolishly Hinduism is treated in the media. Very rarely is it treated with dignity as are other religions. And we are desensitized to that. I am only advocating consciousness of the situation. If one contemplates this portrayal, and then decides to laugh at it, so be it. At least the awareness is there.
Your point of view is more welcome than the general apathy that prevails.
So after so many comments,which course of action is decided?
I think spreading awareness is better.
But, awareness must not be like any other religion.....like around 17th century, Europeans(Portuguese)converted many people with force...they used believe in that awareness.
So was the case in Mongols and Sultanate rulers used to force people to convert into Muslims. They carried it through various ways that included torture,rape,killings.
But, have anyone heard a Hindu King that forced people of other religion to get converted into Hinduism?
I personally feel that,and also make humble request that, please follow path of love and peace. That has always kept Hinduism alive.
~Vinamra
Vinamra,
I agree with you that awareness should be brought about peacefully and with a level head.
I think moderate Hindus in India are faced with Hindu extremism, and are therefore approaching this issue from the point of view: "Don't we have bigger things to worry about."
Moderate Hindus in America, however, are confronted with apathy and disinformation about their religion. I guess the trick is to find a bridge between the two.
None of us should think this issue is as critical as the poverty and violence plaguing the planet. But, it should still not be ignored...
the stuff magazine dare not do any nasty thing with any other religion. they must be made to realise that freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible behaviour. Sex for hindu is a divine; which no other religion has understood. all others feel guilty in indulging in it but still do not refrain from it. the article seems to be cheap tactics to attain fame. someone should depict icons from their religion also in sexual act.
Snehal, Great letter man. Thanks for being a champion of this cause. People forget that America is a land that was supposed to be founded on religious freedoms. Simply because Hindus are a minority, does that mean our religion and culture, that dates back before Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism can be heckeled or used as a punch line? True Hindus would never do such a tasteless and offensive depiction of Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad etc. We are a people who believe in the sanctity of all, regardless of what religious group one belongs to. All we want is to be respected as we respect!
Namaste, Shalom, Asalam Walikom, Peace Be With You All.
Hi
I read the whole blog and i am with you guys to get an apology from stuff magazine i do not care about what the readers may think about hinduism i just care about that picture of hanumanji is so wrong makes me wana punch the artist and the person that came up with that :@.
Thanks
i think im somewhere between snehal and kiran
Do you any of you guys really know completely what hinduism is ? Or more , Do you really know what god says through hindusim?
Snehalbhai,
Will hinduism die?
What is a hindu, One who believes in Hindu Gods or one who is accustomed from birth to hindu traditions or One who just believes in any God, but he/she believes deep and strong?
Why is this paranoia there that Hinduism will DIE? What happened to good old belief? Toughened belief, Blind faith :) ? see where im going .....
In my POV, many of us who were chosen by GOD to be born into a hindu culture were more tolerant, wise and peaceful than some other souls, but still we have not reached the destination that is GOD, yet. Tolerance and belief(scientific/blind/researched/instinctual .. whatever) in GOD's powers is what we should be putting forth in Hinduism for others to witness and learn. i like to call it "Sanathana Dharma" rather than "Hinduism" because its been always there, will always be there, (Sanathana means Eternal, ofcourse).
Your or my fears are not gonna destroy it nor those, who staunchly believe and follow it = GOD .. of any religion.
As for replying or giving a piece of mind to STUFF, yes you can. With time to follow through all that, that comes after that.
As for me, im selfishly happy that my peace of mind is unaffected by those disgusting/beautiful images. Non Duality :)
i still wonder why i commented here. was there a need? God Knows (: .
Forget about definition of Hinduism, and celibacy of hanuman, etc etc. Would the publishers have dared show Mohammad, Khadija, Hassan and others like this? There would have been quick reprisal from the fanatics. Stoning until death -- no doubts about it. It is nothing other than fear of one's death like this which keeps journos and publishers away from caricaturing characters from Islam.
Mr Anonymous (pity,you are rather spineless hiding behind a blanket) you are a true example of the slaves that Lord Macaulay helped produced in India. You have company. There are millions like you that have been inculcated by the Macaulayan system.
hello kiran i dont know whether u r miss or mr. or mrs.
leave that
no one in this world shows that they belong to particular religion
think once if u r an optimistic person, just go on saying to everyone that u r optimistic. that means u r pescimist. try to be a human not a moron
hey common guys its not the matter of getting an apology from that publisher we shud prove that indians can do anything we shud get his mind blow off
lets f--k him
I have a question ?
Did either Hanuman , Ganesh or even that other guy ever exist ?
If no historical proof is there , then they never existed .
And if they didnot exist , I see nothing wrong in playing with fictional characters . Even I can make a hentai version of Harry Potter .
I'm with anonymous (the oh grow up one) on this one. I know this horse is long dead, but a comment for posterity. what.
I was born Catholic but Hindu cosmology is irresistible with it's logic. After having read the arguments in the Brahmasutra Bhasyas for example, more primitive notions of divinity don't interest my intellect anymore. But thats me.
But you do see what Hinduism in it's actual sense is don't you? C'mon really. After all that about history and culture, you do have some notion of what it is? right? If you think it's about imagery then you're like every other moron that has tried to erase vedic thought through erasing, defacing, sabotaging cultural symbols. Nothing will erase it man. It's impossible.
Yet fanatics like you rake up dirt so simpler hindus whose idea of the religion is still in it's understanding. These people will need several more lifetimes before the deeper esoteric meanings make sense to them. But misinformed by people like you they forget the real deal and focus their energies making noise about nothing.
Aatha Shukla uses fighting words, go to her blog and it's about divinity and peace. See?
Those who contribute to culture know it's a living thing.
People like you rake up historical issues to divert attention are only really custodians of a dead culture.
Grow up.
When I began reading this comment to a long dead debate, I was looking forward to a well-written counterpoint to my argument. Of course, after reading the third "people like you" (the mantra of the intolerant) I realized that intellectual debate wouldn't be forthcoming. In your defense, you changed up the first instance by replacing "people" with "fanatics." Whether a self-professed agnostic can rightly be called "fanatic" is an argument for another time.
I don't agree with you regarding cultural imagery that "nothing will erase it." Hinduism is a living religion, but even "people like you" who hold Hinduism's "primitive" cosmology in such contempt must admit it's not hard to imagine it, under pressure of its monotheistic neighbors, going the way of the religions of the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Sumerians, and Celts, which have long since died and been sadly relegated to stuffy classroom discussion.
But ultimately, I would suggest refraining from calling anyone "moron" before you learn the proper usage of "it's" and "its."
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000227.htm
i realy pity the editor for such a cheap pulicity.....this clearly shows the lack of knowledge on indian mythgology and an monron iedology....sorry for the harsh words.....
These people who have potrayed this shit should be punished.
Freedom of expression is needed but the same freedom shouldn't hurt others culture.
What this _______ (To be filled with the worst word on universe)know about hinduism ?
Sanadana Dharma
'Hinduism is Humanism'
you fucking moron your jesus was gay
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Gay%20Jesus_files/jesus%20kiss.jpg
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